And this great adventure we call life. There's no point in getting older. If you don't also get wiser and then it'll Wilder. So when you finally realize that it's none of your business, what anyone else thinks of you. And you feel liberated. To live your life, your own way. Beyond the. Approval seeking. People pleaser. To find your own unique. Centric way. Each week. We'll pick the topic. And have a conversation. This podcast is sponsored by the creation. And envision by Nicole foods. Listen to the end for a discount code just for you. Udo wiser wilds or listeners. Thank you for being here. So welcome to this week's episode. Now we're going to talk about. Mary. And partner with. So welcome everybody. Today we're going to do a quick catch up and then I thought we'd talk about how to choose the bright person to marry. Yes. That is a surprise. Um, and yeah, I've been so cranky in the last few days, which is not like me at all and not cranky with other people, but I could just feel this sort of shortness and tension The moon is in Scorpio and I, I can't say it always affects me like this cuz it doesn't, but I've been coming so aware of where the promises I don't keep to myself, which I do want to do an episode just on that. Oh my God. Me too. And so what I'm aware of is this, you know, how many unfinished projects I have and how I'm frustrated about not making money, that I'm kind of dipping into my resources as opposed to expanding them. And, it's because I'm not showing up in that consistent way or I'm not telling people what's available for them to either buy or, coaching I'm not making offers. I'm not going to go into that now, but I've been kind of going like, you know, there's been a real wrestle with myself in the last few days. Mm-hmm. Preview of coming attractions. Yes. And I think it's also important to mention, to put that in context, both of us work. With the lunar cycles and the moon moves through every sign about every two and a half days. And your mood changes as that moon moves and depending on which house the moon is passing through for you. And depending on the planets you have in that house, and also obviously the transits, then that is where your focus is and that's where the impact is. So for example, my moon is in my ninth house, which is about, expansion and exploration and growth. And it's transiting my natal moon, in the sign of Scorpios. You know, Scorpio's all about deep transformation. So it makes sense that it's kind of digging deep and saying, come on, come on. What old habits have you not figured out yet? Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I can tell you where your moon is if you'd like me to. Sure. I mean, I know my, my moon is in my fifth house, moon and Leo, my fifth. So your moon is in your fifth house and right now the moon is also obviously in Scorpio and Scorpio for everybody right now. And it's transiting right over your Neptune and Mars so conjunct to those in your natal chart. And black Lilith is over your natal moon. So for you it would be probably around creativity. Mm-hmm. Or else it's around where your selfs sabotaging, cuz Neptune dissolves things. It's funny, I ended up, in sculpting class last night being the only student with the teacher, which, there's only three of us normally, but, For whatever reasons the other two weren't there. And we got into a big conversation about creativity and, I mean, that's a topic for another time too, but it was so interesting how different people handle, you know, all the other things that they may bring, into, things that come up in daily life, such as perfectionism and how that is handled. Um, how that person handles it, I should say. Within the lens of creativity, which of course is so personal. So it's probably the apex of how you handle that particular, Thing from a perfectionism standpoint and, and, you know, ego and, control and all those, all those topics that we all deal with in many aspects of our lives. Yes, yes. Um, I have much to talk about on that topic, but let's leave that for a moment and I was just listening to Reti and he's talking about how do you choose the perfect person to marry? And I thought, oh, wow, this, such a great conversation for you and I, because I spent most of my life single, you know, I've had a few long-term relationships. I've been married once. I've lived with, oh, I've lived with two other boyfriends. Other than that one. I've been engaged once or twice other than the. And, um, and, and you've been married for how many years? 35. So let's do, because we're older, wise or wilder. And I think in terms of, you know, I looked up yesterday in terms of what we decided was our purpose, which is that people who've created an identity for themselves and feel in many ways constrained and trapped within that. And how as you get older and wiser, you can be a little wilder cuz you realize that what anybody thinks about you is none of your business. So within the context of that, and comparing who you were then with who you are now, what would be your criteria and your counsel. And I think you need to lead this conversation about who you'd marry about picking the right person to marry. Well, you know that it's such an interesting question because of course I'm a very different person now than I was. So I'm 63 now. We got married when we were 28. He's a month older than I am. We were friends first. So we met when we were 18. I actually, met him through my ex-boyfriend, Steve, who we're still friends with. And, Steve and I were long broken up when we got together, but I always thought he was very cute. Um, very funny. Oh, he's very handsome. Very handsome, very, uh, you know, I liked him a lot, but he was, and, and is, he's a Libra, he was always, Love me, love my insecurities. It's all right out there. He wants to talk about it, he wants to process it with you and this whole thing. And I am the diametric opposite of that. And he's a cancer moon, I think, so I always forget that. I, I'm sure I have it somewhere, because I'm sure we've talked about this before. We have talked about it. I'll try to find that. But so, when I first met him, I mean, I wasn't thinking about him as a partner. Obviously I was 18 and in another relationship, but, I thought that's way too much for me. You know, like, I don't, that's just, I can't really handle that. Like I, he's great as a friend and all of that sort of thing, but I can't, it was hard for me to imagine being with somebody like that. Yes. Cancer, moon, Aquarius Rising. Um, and then, and then, we finished college. I went off to law school. I came in in Boston. I came back to Los Angeles, was working as a lawyer. Was primarily meeting lawyers, was primarily dating lawyers. And at the grand old age of 26 decided I'm probably never gonna get married because I can't marry a lawyer. You know, I don't wanna be married to a lawyer and that's all I'm meeting and I'm done. And then just pretty funny in retrospect, why did you come to the conclusion that you couldn't marry a lawyer? Because I felt like it was too much, too much alpha energy, too much type a, too much, um, Drive too much intensity. Um, you know, I think I felt at a very young age that I did not, you know, I wanted a career. I didn't want to, um, I don't know. The career point was really important to me. I didn't really wanna be told what to do by a husband. I watched my mother being given an allowance, and that kind of thing. I, of course, as a child I was given allowance and that's appropriate. And even wife being given allowance, that wasn't unusual for that time. It just was what it was. But I started working at 14 because I want my own thing, and that was always really important to me. Um, I just thought like that too. It, it was just too much personality. I would be too much under somebody else's thumb or whatever. It did occur to me around that time. I think, you know, somebody who it operates at or maybe wasn't even a fully formed thought necessarily, but sort of a conscious, subconscious understanding of like maybe somebody, not necessarily, um, I don't know, I don't think I was thinking in terms of masculine and feminine, but sort of like more of a type B personality. You know, somebody. I don't wanna say softer and gentler cuz that's not really descriptive of him at all. Although he is a very gentle person in a lot of ways. But, with more sensitivity so, um, you know, when it all kind of came together, you know, I, I, I'm sure told this bef certainly to you and maybe on this podcast, but, uh, he was living in Oakland in northern California with his girlfriend who I knew. And my really good friend from law school who was a year behind me, who grew up on the east coast. She, had graduated. She wanted to come out and visit me. And so we drove from Los Angeles up the coast, and. You know, we had planned this out obviously, and we were gonna stay with him and his girlfriend for a couple nights and do whatever, Northern California. And after we both graduated from the University of California, Berkeley in, 1981, he had gone to cooking school and then had gone into the restaurant business and he had first had a croissants shop, there was a period of time around then where croissants were all the rage filled croissants, savory croissants, sweet croissants. There were, you know, storefronts that were just croissants. So he had these two croissant places. He was entrepreneurial. He was entrepreneurial, and they were very popular. As just like walk-ins. And they also supplied croissants to, you know, sort of the Bay Area in a lot of ways. So anyway, I had never seen those and he had since opened then a pizza place in Oakland. So I said to my friend, like, let's just go, to the pizza place. Like, I feel like I need to go see that. And he was, right in it with, I'm really unhappy in this relationship. I don't know how to get out, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, yeah, you're not getting out of it. You'll marry her, you know, she'll talk you into it or whatever. We kind of had a spark and then my friend was like, uh, hello. He's the perfect person for you. And he broke up with her two weeks later and he came down to LA and. You know. And did he court you? He did. He did. I mean, I think he flipped himself out a little bit because he was, you know, in that relationship for X number of years and then it was hard to extricate. Like she really gave him a hard time for a long time. Well, it's, I always say to people, be careful what you get into. And I say this twice out cause I've made this mistake. Uh, it's much harder to exit than it is to get in. And it's not as fun. Oh, way, not as fun. And even before she knew that he was dating me, like just the fact that he was trying to break up with her, although PS some years later, after we got married, but I think it was before we had kids, maybe not. Anyway, she got in touch with him and she said, I'm calling you to apologize because somebody is doing to me what I did to you, and it sucks, and I'm really, really sorry. Wow. That takes courage and you've really got to admire somebody who is willing to clean up like that. Um, I know. So in service of our podcast. What I'm after is qualities. And if you have rules, I suppose, I think in terms of values and all of those kind of things, so people, if people are listening and they're thinking, okay, so how do I know. That I'm in a, I'm about to enter into a good situation, or if I'm seeking somebody, what would be the, you know, kind of the yamas and the ni yamas, you know, the devotions and disciplines that could give me a framework, so for example, he was saying that he wanted somebody who had the same kind of cultural values, you know, um, valued education, valued family, valued personal development. Mm-hmm. Someone who's willing to be in partnership as opposed to somebody who says, no, Danny, you take care of that. You know, um, come back to me when you've made the millions and I'm not dealing with the money, you know, or whatever. Um, you know, so, so those, you know, because from learning astrology, let's put it in another context. The, you spend the first four signs getting to know yourself, you know, so Aries is self, then, Taurus is I value, like what do I value? Do I value luxury or do I value ordinary? Do I, you know, um, what's important to me? And so that's where I spend my time, my money, and my energy. And then Gemini comes to, what do I think? So it's our first moment of relating, but it's relating within a local context and it's kind of school learning and it's the first communicator. Um, And it's known as the gesture, the entertainer. There can be a lot of kind of, air and word circulating with Gemini, but not always with the same substance as say, Sagittarius. Cancer is home roots. How do I feel secure? What do I need? So I have a sense of, security tourists, as in I value is about self-worth. And then, cancer, it's like, what do I need to feel nurtured? And then the sex, the fa, the play, the fun, the courtship, all of that happens and love affairs happen in the fifth house. Right. So, you know, and, and I've, I've been saying the signs, but it's those houses and then the sixth houses. Oh, okay. So that's all fun, you know, you know, we're all feeling the dopamine hits, you know, we're all, we're all feeling like, You know, I mean, love God, but it's lost. Right? And then it comes down to, you know, are you a morning person? Are you a night person put the seat down in the toilet? You know, it's daily habits and how does your day-to-day work, right? So, the sixth house really wants to get pragmatic. Like the seventh house then is where, okay, that's working. There's nothing that you do that I want to kill you on a daily basis. So then you make a formal contract. And until very recently, marriage was a contractor between parents and families, you know, and it was about making sure that the family built legacy and wealth. Mm-hmm. And you know, and, and let's not even call it wealth, let's talk, call it security, and resources. And so, And in the seventh house, it was a formal contract, and that's what it's, and the eighth house then goes into, which is, other people's money. So it's the opposite of that second house, which is my money. What do, I value? How do I make my income? How do I take care of myself, dah, dah, dah. And it can be, oh, you just found out that they've got$50,000 of, school loans. You can find out that, you know, they've agreed to take care of their parents once their parents turned 60 or something. You know? So it's like, how does it all work together? And then you go to the ninth house, which is of course, now that you've told me your deepest, darker secrets, and of course the eighth house is also like, what's taboo? You know? So what are your fantasies? You know, do you like snm? Are you gonna freak me out? You know, do you want threesomes? You know, it's like, Throw it out there. Yeah, yeah. But it's you, you learn. Oh, right. Ok. So that's important to you, or that isn't, and then the ninth house. Okay. So how, what do we make of this now? So coming back to the framework of that, you've created a very successful marriage. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is the willingness to look at yourself and really ask yourself, what, what is important to me? What am I, you know, what am I willing to put up with? But really coming face to face with yourself and going, what can I live with and what can I not live with? And, which doesn't mean like it was, it was very important to me to be with somebody who was not going to be controlling of me. Like I was really allergic to that concept. I grew up in, in an authoritarian sort of household. I'm not terrible, but, but there was, there was a lot, you know, there was lot of rules. A lot of rules, you know, some shaming as was the, form of parenting in that age and, you know, Jewish household, like, what can I say? Jewish guilt. I mean, it's real, you know, so I've had the Catholics had a monopoly on that. Yeah, no, no, of course. I mean, you know, high standards. I'm also aware of what other people think of you, you know, you know, my mother would be, you know, I come home with no matter what grade I got. What did Olivia guess? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Comparing and also, and yes, what do people think? And I'll be interested to hear if your household was like this. I mean my, you know, I'm the oldest of four girls. My parents were I think 21 and 22 when they had me, 20, 21 when they got married and then had, you know, another three quickly in succession their babies for God's sake. And their way of dealing with these four little girls was, you know, and Garson still laughs about this. Like, everything's the same, the same, the same, the same. You know, there wasn't a lot of room for nurturing one's, individuality like that was not on the radar at all. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, I think my mother. Like me as actually is somebody who needs a good amount of, of solitude to do her own thing. Like she's the creative one, she's a great cook, et cetera. And I just think at a certain point it was like, yo, you go out and figure it out. You know? But in terms of, like lessons or this or that, you know, there wasn't, it was like individuality was not app prized value at all. And so, I really rebelled against that. Like I was gonna be an individual if it killed me, you know? Um, I think that's in your chart. And that's why I think astrology is so great because you see, you know, what's your. What's your, what's your fate? You know, and, and love your fate. And then, there's so many people who would say, our destiny is predetermined, that we come in with, a Dharma contract and we come in with certain consciousness, contracts, and then really the freedom lies in how you're going to live that out. With your Aries rising, you're always going to be a pioneer of some form. You know, I have an Aries son, there's just no question that you were going to be kinda entrepreneurial or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, I grew up again with three sisters. I'm the middle girl and I'm the middle child, and there's, my brother was born five years after the youngest girl. My mother managed the money in our house, which was completely unusual in those days. Wow. Hmm. Yeah, so my father had a certain amount of money and my mother managed it and she would've been a better manager of money than my father, cuz my father was, you know, my father was pisan he was more expansive and he would've been the more, I mean, my mother was super creative. She made all her clothes. She was a great cook. Um, and she ran a great house. I mean, she must have Virgo in there. She must have Capricorn in there. And she was definitely a builder. My father was kind of a quite the philosopher, like on the storyteller, a lot of d i y you know, he, I mean, you know, if he'd been born another generation later, or even in another family, I mean, I'm sure he would've been an architecture or a builder or something, you know, he could do anything. He was great. And I had a book when I was a child called My Daddy Can Fix Anything. Oh, I saw a child in India go through the airport one time and he had either a book or a backpack that said, my daddy can fix anything. And I was like, God, like I loved that book when I was a child. Oh, that's so cute. I love that. Go to Daddy's girl. Yeah. Challenge with my mother, but mm-hmm. There wasn't room for individuality either. And there's a lot of competition and I suspect that there still is, you know, there's a lot of competition, you know, I mean, I win prizes for writing poetry and short stories, and it was not really acknowledged. Yeah. Like there was nothing kind of. And I won't say I was discouraged, but you were kind of left to your own devices, and I understand that you've got five children, you know, you've got three meals a day to put on the table. You know, my mother didn't get a dishwasher until we were kind of probably in our teens. My grandfather lived with us, who really helped her. But I mean, yeah, full on. I get it. You know, I remember when one stage, you know, reading stories to my nephews and mom goes, I never read you a story ever. And I'm like, I know. I mean, that's a big deal. That's a deal. Oh, I have one beautiful memory. I'm sure I've said this on the podcast before, I was knitting and it wasn't going anywhere, and my mother said, oh, you're not making much progress with that. Let me show you how. And I remember her sitting down and showing me how to knit. And I became a brilliant knitter afterwards. And I even had to knitting business. But coming back to alignment and in terms of relationship, what I really saw with my parents was, number one, they really loved each other and they had a chemistry, you know, my father was very playful and my mother could, you know, get weighed down and into the seriousness of things. And I'm not saying that he didn't as well, but he definitely kind of elevated that. And, you know, one of the great values, I think that he thought me was that number one, travel is the university of life. And number two was that, no matter how serious things get, there's always time for a play. And I dunno if he would say that, but that was one of the things that I got was that, you know, you know, as they'd go out for a drink with friends once a week or something like that in Ireland, you didn't, I mean, we never went out for dinner. You didn't go out for dinner. There wasn't been a lot of restaurants when I was growing up. Yeah. Um, and you know, and if you've got five kids, it's a lot of money to go out for dinner. Sure, absolutely. So, so, so the alignment was they were on the same team, you know, like they were very much on the same team. And I think that's something that I've always looked for and haven't really found, I mean, probably with my first boyfriend, but I wasn't who I was with for eight years, but I wasn't ready for it, you know? And like, and he was probably really the most suitable of all the men no, no, definitely. I mean, I look at my parents and I, you know, when we were little, um, you know, my, my grandfather my father's father was the prototypical, Jewish immigrant came here when he was four from Czechoslovakia. Literally, you know, pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, you know, very poor, put himself through law school and business school, and was very, very successful. And, honestly, you know, my dad kind of was in the shadow of that success. He's a much more, you know, milder person. And, but it's a standard. It's a standard and an expectation, you know, there's all sorts of standards that one family has, and then you, you know, come back to the astrology and the eighth house, like you're merging. You know, those families, culture, those families values those families, debts or wealth, you're, you're merging. You know how it works. Yeah. We always went together for birthdays and stuff, and, and Carlos going, they only want you. And I'm like, well, if you're part of this, my ex-husband, if you are part of this family, you know, today isn't about me. And it's not about you, it's about my mother and it's her birthday and we're both going. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. So, like, there isn't a choice here, you know, I think that's really, really important. And I mean, you know, it's, I mean, just the way things work out. I mean, Garson's parents, he's the youngest child. His parents have been gone for, you know, more than 20 years each. And he really. Has a lovely relationship with my parents, you know, more my dad, but he, that's, you know, been a huge value to him. I think it's really meant the world to him. He knows he could go to my dad for, for anything, you know, and easier than, possibly sometimes to go to your own parents. Right? That's true too. Yeah, that's definitely because there's the outsider perspective, you know, because, I mean, you know, your, your siblings and your family have been learning how to push your buttons, for a long time. So true. It's so true. It's like, you know, as what's the, what's the ramdas quote of think you're in night and go spend a week with your family? No, it's true. I mean, we had a really funny thing the other night, like Father's Day, you know, we were there for dinner and after dinner we got in this conversation about, um, you know, my sisters were all there with their spouses and various kids and whatever. We got this conversation about do you have a safe in your house and we were no. And they were all like, are you fucking nuts? Blah, blah, blah. I was just sort of like, yeah, probably good idea. But he was so rattled by sort of being made fun of and we came home, we talked about it, and I was like, why do you care that mu he, and he said like, I got out of there and I came home and we're talking about it. He is like, I don't know. Like it, it just, it hearkens back to some other shame thing from his family, I think, where, you know, oh my God. Totally. I mean, you know, I'm the only one in my family who do doesn't own a house at the moment. I'm, you know, are several. And, and it's, it's so interesting because there's, so, there's moments when I have conversations with my siblings and I feel like, oh my God, you're projecting your fears, your worries unto me, and, you know, I don't want them. Mm-hmm. You know, fear is a prayer for something you don't wanna happen. And, and I remember having this conversation with my mother, which doesn't come back to. How do you choose the right person to marry? Um, you know, when I was going on yet another trip or moving to Europe, and this is probably the last time I did it, and she was I worry about you. And I said, I don't want you to worry about me. I want you to think of me and think I'm enjoying myself. I'm having a lovely time. I said, I don't want your worry energy. Right. You know, and like, and this, I think is a thing to navigate in relationship and partnership. Right, right. That is a real, that's such a good way to put it. I don't want your worry energy. I have to remember that. But I think it's, you know, I was just gonna say about my parents. You know, it was very difficult early on because, you know, my, my grandfather. Held the purse strings even with my, with my father, and, it was very hard from my mother. And, you know, I remember some, some, you know, real, real rough periods. But, you know, fast forward here we are, there are 86 and 85. They really love each other. And she's, definitely fading, but it's actually fascinating because she, um, you know, she's got no short term memory, the typical, you know, decline, all that sort of thing. But my dad, he, you know, he had a terrible temper for a long time. It's still in there somewhere, but he's funny as hell and she gets the joke, man, you know, she can just be like, Completely, God knows where. But if we're sitting down and talking and he's being funny, she's, she's there. Like, she gets the joke, she laughs on cue. It's so cute. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he loves it. And it's just, there's that sweetness of them together, you know? Um, so coming back to, so I'm going to try and do this because I think this could be useful. I know we keep getting, yeah. What the, so for me, one of the things that at the age of 61, which I would've been very different to 27 or 28, would be, okay, is this somebody that I can. Argue with and repair with rather than amplify if there's a difference. That's a really important thing for me. Mm-hmm. Um, another one is aligned values. You know, do you know, is family, are friends important? Do they like to entertain? Do they like to be around people? You know, do they not necessarily like to cook? But it would be so important to me that they would appreciate food, you know, and they would appreciate that sharing that breaking of bread. Curiosity and intellectual connection is important, like intellectually curious and not necessarily in the same things, you know, but they would be curious. Um, a spiritual aspect would be important. You know, so that they either understand or are willing to explore. Not so that they go oh, that's stupid, or dismiss it right on the same, on the same hand on the on and on the same hand, I would find it very hard to be with a religious zealot, um, as in I couldn't be. Um, then the other one is to be responsible financially, you know, is so important for it to you know, be aware, as my mother would say, you, you know, you, you cut according to the measure of your cloth or you, you, your measure is according to the cut of your cloth, one or the other. I get the same wrong. I'll think of it later. So that's an important one. Um, generosity's important. Kindness is highly important. Absolutely. Ability to be able to apologize and to own your own stuff is important. Sense humor and playfulness. So important. So important. So important. My God. Yeah. Um, health is important in being taken care of your physical, mental and emotional. And spiritual, you know, being able to be contained somebody who likes their own company. It sounds like a, an exhaustive list, isn't it? But you know, with all of those things that you see how people are with other people, you see, you know how they treat other people, you see the respect and kindness and care, um, that they afford to others. All of that's important and Yeah. And of course I'm super sexy. Well, of course, of course. I always say that if, if at this point in our lives a man only knows how to poke, stick in a hole, like seriously. I know, right? Except that all those things, you know, it's like, all right. You know, being good looking is nice. Keeping your sha yourself in shape. It is nice. But, you know, there's so many of the things that you said, you know, like the curiosity and sense of wonder and, the travel P piece I know is big for both of us. That makes somebody, and sense of humor obviously is incredibly sexy, you know, that it's all in the mix, you know? Oh, no. It's not like somebody has to come at this kind of, you know, perfect. Who would I say that? Oh my God. Javier Barde, sex on legs. Um, You know, Richard Gere is super attractive. Um, yeah. Sean Connery, like, I mean, you know. Yes. What can we say, you know, living legend. And it doesn't have to come in like a particular package. Right. But it has to. But there's, but it is a holistic thing and it's, and if I've learned anything as I've gotten older, it's about qualities. Mm-hmm. It's not about, you know, um, they have to have this kind of a job or they've got to be earning this kind of thing, or they've got to live in this particular suburb, but people are showing you evidence of who they are by their choices. Yeah. You know, and it's so important for to, you know, I remember going on a date with a guy and he waited while I dug in my bag for, to get out the money, to pay for the coffee. And I thought, I don't care how interesting or how fabulous or whatever you are. And, you know, and someone said to me, but men don't know how to behave these days. They don't know whether you take offense or whatever. And I'm like, well, if you don't have the courage and the confidence for, to say, I've got your coffee, you're not gonna have the courage or confidence to be in a relationship with me. And that, that's one big quality for me, actually. Yes. Is the courage and the confidence to go for what you want. Mm-hmm. You know? Cause I mean, I know I'm a force of nature, you know, so from that point of view, it's not about going head to head and it's not compare, contrast, you know, it's not any of those things, but it's somebody who kind of goes like, wow, I, I love that about you. I love that you've got like lots of energy. Not as in I'm intimidated and I'm gonna run the other way. So boring. Yeah. And, and like that's, you know, so much of, so. It's like what I really like. If I was to say that was the biggest thing that I find lacking in, in men is that that kind of courage is that, and I dunno what, you know, and as I say also, we've also heard me say that you either get bitter or better. Right? So, and if you've been betrayed and if you've been hurt, it takes tremendous courage to go into yourself and to expand and go beyond yourself. Mm-hmm. And I've done a lot of work for it to be better than I was. Cuz you know, I definitely went through a period where I'd say I was bitter. And you know, in my thirties I was, you know, I didn't even imagine you like that sad and Oh, I mean, I had an edge, you know, like I was sad and, you know, I'd been in with Yeah. Like, and, and I was hurt. I mean, that's where that comes from. No matter whether you're out there with a Uzi spray on or killing people or whatever, you know, all of that stuff comes from being hurt. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh absolutely. But that, that intimidating thing, I like that. That was always an interesting concept to me because, you know, people would say that to me and I would get that. I would either that you were intimidating. Yeah. I would get that from men or I would sort of sense like that. Like, oh, you know, you're too good for me. Nonsense. But, I didn't really sort of get it at that point. It was like, okay, cuz I'm not like, oh, on one-to-one, unpack that. Okay. So tell me, so tell me that. So talk, talk me through, oh, you're too good for me. You're too. Because that meaning like, oh, you've got it so together, you know, you've got this, you're a lawyer and you've got this great job and whatever the components are. I mean, I definitely heard that a number of times where it was like, I can't, I can't, you know, I, I can't be the man in this package. I can't be the bigger than in this package. Like the ego of that person needed to be the bigger than, and there was the fear that I would be kind of like that, which I don't think really think that way, you know? No, and I, and, and I think I'm still meeting that and possibly that's where I'm I Sure you're still seeing, I'm sure you're, yeah. Thanks. And, and it's so interesting to me. And this may be to do with again, the chart of, you know, the scorpion moon. Within about half an hour of meeting somebody, I know what their vulnerabilities are. I know, you know where their fears are. I know you know who they are. Like I have a, deep kind of intuition and I'm rarely wrong. And it's not that I'm sharing that with somebody or anything like that, but, you know, knowing that and still wanting somebody to me is massively powerful. Mm-hmm. And much more powerful than putting them on a pedestal and, then having them to keep up that really public face of, oh, I've got it all together. Right, right. Mm-hmm. And I find that with men, And I wonder about this because, and then I see that men look at me and they think, you know, I get the same thing. Oh, you've got it together. You're so self-assured, you're so confident. You're fun, you're playful, you know, you're always in a good mood. You're this, you're that. And I kind of go, I made a choice to be this, and I've worked for this and it's been a daily practice and fuck it. What that, like, why would you choose somebody you know, who's miserable or who's cranky, or who's at you, or who doesn't want you to go and have fun with your friends, or who doesn't want you to go motorbike? And, you know, like, do you feel better cause of that? Right. And like, and that they don't see my vulnerabilities and they don't see my fears, like, do they not see, you know, that I'm, as you know, that I'm as vulnerable as they are. Right. See that. But that, see, that was a real, that was a real sticking point for me, you know, cuz I really was not very good at showing it my vulnerabilities. And I'm a lot better than I used to be, but I'm still not great at it. And, you know, we got, in a lot of trouble, you know, in our marriage a number of years ago, you know, where, for a variety of reasons, some of which, you know, but it was, you know, he's, he's a very sensitive person in a lot of ways. But that sensitivity was so consuming in a lot of ways that it didn't lose, it didn't leave a lot of room for my sensitivities. For me to say, Hey, like I really, it really would mean so much to me if you would do this, or I need that. That wasn't easy for me to say. So it was sort of like this perfect confluence where I wasn't saying it and he couldn't hear it. And you know, we dovetailed apart for a while where it was really like, wait, you can't hear me. You know, you say you want this vulnerability from me, but do you really want it? Are you really willing to see me that way? That's so great. It is. And I have to say to his enormous credit, because you know when a lot of this came out in couples therapy because, I've had this occasion in therapy many times. Where something comes out of my mouth that I don't even know that I'm thinking, and then it's like falls out of your mouth and you're like, oh my God. You know, and things like that. There were a few things because there was part of it where it's like, okay, what the hell is wrong with me? Ive got this wonderful sensitive man and I'm messing it up. But then it was sort of like going through the work of really looking at ourselves and each other and the dynamic, you know, things came up that really needed to be addressed on both of our ends. And, he really, like, there was one bombshell where it was like, am I the wife or I'm the mother, you know, are you looking for mothering from me? And like when it came up, He was just like, oh my God, you're right. Like no defensiveness whatsoever. Just this, um, not, not even necessarily. I am gonna be able to recognize that when I'm doing it, but realizing that that was a behavior that he was participating. And he did not wanna do that. And um, so looking to you to mother him. Yeah. And he stopped. Oh my God. That is extraordinary. Yeah. And that's huge. A huge thing. Yeah. I think it's a monstrous thing because I know that I can step into caretaker and I think that you and I probably have this I mean, I remember being at my father's funeral and I've got two people that I'm hugging and they're crying and I'm thinking, That. Hello? Yeah. Taking care of two people who are at least four or five people closer to him. You know what I mean? And like, and, and there's a point where, this has certainly happened to me in some of my relationships where I feel like, oh wow, if I fall apart, everything falls apart. You know, if I, if I'm not making the money, if I'm not, running the bills or if I'm not taking care of the stuff, then everything falls apart. And again, that I think is what you're saying is, is that if you've got a really sensitive partner, then you are holding the space for them to be sensitive and. And there is no kind of blame in any of this situation. But there's also this, it's just a dynamic and then there's a space of, well, who's holding the space for me to be sensitive. Exactly. And you know, for me, I have to practice being vulnerable. It's not something that comes naturally to me. Number one, I've got like, everything is in my first house, you know, and, and you know, and I've got pi, a lot of Piscean energy, which is super creative energy, you know, and I definitely was much more sensitive as when I was younger. But through the yoga and meditation and through all my practices, I certainly have tools now, which is why I mostly turn up and I only turn up because, you know, as I say, some days I'm not good enough company for myself. I only turn up with, you know, I can turn up and I genuinely feel like, you know, oh, hi. So tell me what's going on. You know? Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting. And I mean, and you see the dynamic, that plays, in my children, you know, But Renee Brown talks about this and she talks about that. There was a man who came up to her at a book signing and said to her, you know, you talk about women talk about they want men to be more vulnerable and more sensitive. And he said, Watch this fall apart. If the Knight falls off his horse mm-hmm. Watch it fall apart. Because I do think, and it depends on coming back again to the seventh house and what contract have you made. Right. And that's why it's so important to talk about things like money, vulnerability, play, you know, sex. How we're gonna deal with each other's families, with each other's moods. You know, what's the standard, what's the expectation? If you have children who's going to work and not work, you know, what are your values? Like the values conversation is so central. Yeah. And of course it's an unfolding, you know, it's an unfolding conversation. I mean, there's no relationship. Where, everything, life is a mystery. Life is a great adventure and how are you going to manage in those rapids? How are you gonna manage in those big kind of waterfalls and they will occur? And to me, this is what comes back to like why personal development is so important in terms of, you know, you've gotta take care of yourself. And if you begin to trust in yourself, then you can begin to be much more generous kind and trusting of another. No, it's absolutely true. And I think that's, that's made a huge, a huge difference in our relationship. There was something that came up, I don't even remember what this, you know, like where he felt like if he was showing weakness, what he perceived as weakness, not necessarily that I did, sensitivity that I would perceive him as being. Weak and I was just, I've never, you're like, oh, I saw that after the first date. Felt that, right. I've never like looked at that as a bad thing. And like a lot of ways it's like I admire that about him. And in fact it's been so fascinating for me as I've learned more about astrology and myself because, you know, I wouldn't have known anything certainly about the north node and the south node, you know, when I was 18 or 28 or, you know, even maybe 10 years ago. But to sort of realize with the south node in Aries and the North and Libra and I've got a lot of signs in Scorpio, but a lot of them in the seventh house. Like clearly my mission in this life is to learn how to be in relationship. I also have a very, very strong eighth house, you know, Scorpio, I mean, Telium, Scorpio, that whole thing, you know? Yeah. So it's, and it, and it's, you know, it's a, it's a tension. It's definitely a tension. But it's an interesting one. Um, yes, it is an interesting one. And what I've learned recently, and this is the subtlety between north and south node, is it's about coming into the center. So the, the new stuff you're learning is the north node, but it's not going to the north node. It's about being able to integrate that with what you're bringing in from the south node. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because we can get so sort of stuck on, we need to be moving towards something, um, that is so beautiful. I mean, I stopped you when you were talking about the vulnerability piece of like how people are asking for that? How does that make you feel? You know, and I go, I'm really open in conversation and I can be really vulnerable in conversation. I'm very aware of my own false and flaws, so I don't have a lot of shame around them. So maybe that's why I feel more self-assured to people is because as I say, if you own your shadow, then it loses its power over you. Well there's the shame piece of it, you know, and that's an interesting thing. But I mean, we had a conversation recently about, um, cuz like sometimes it just doesn't occur to me, you know, that that is something of note to be shared. So this is the example Garson, you know, he's gotten very interest. He, has some things that he really feels like he needs to work out of his system, you know, childhood, parental stuff. So he's interested in doing somatic experiencing, which is something that, you know, my, my therapist does and that she's not the appropriate person for him. Um, he'd love yoga. I don't think he would do it, but yeah. I mean, he probably would, but, um, so he's, he's pursuing that. But he also, I guess somebody must have talked to him about ecstatic dance. And so he was looking, I, he found somewhere in Santa Monica that you can go on Sundays and they do it every Sunday, whatever. And he, he said, would you be interested in going with me? And I said, no, because I have an equilibrium disorder. I don't have the physical capability to whirl around with my eyes closed or whatever. They, I can't do it, you know? And I said to him, he said, but you're fine dancing, at parties and I said, I am very, I, I am usually terrified dancing so, And he was shocked. Part of what I have is like, it's, you can't, you don't have a sense of your body in space, so it becomes more difficult, you know, when there's a lot of people around and I'm also, you know, usually dressed up and usually in some kind of heel hot heel. So I can do it, but it's like takes everything I have. And I guess I had never told him that, and he was sort of really shocked and he said, well, you don't have to dance. And I'm like, I know, but you wanna dance. You know, I wanna, yeah. It doesn't, the difficulty doesn't outweigh, the wanting to do it. And so we'll dance two, three D, whatever. I can't be out there all night whirling around, can't do that, you know? But it was just such an interesting moment because, he was sort of like, I can't believe you never shared that with me. And I've just sort of like, on the one hand thought like, well, I guess that's sort of weird that I didn't, but it honestly never occurred to me? So that's weird. That is a little weird, I suppose. Um, I don't think it's weird. Carlos would say things to me, he'd say, oh my God, you told a story. I never knew that about you. And I said, telling, telling for as long as we're together, you're probably learn things. sometimes you, as you said, when in therapy, like sometimes you hear yourself saying things and you think, I never knew that like about myself or I never, that's fascinating. That's so wild that that can happen, where you just go, whoa, it just fell outta my mouth. Which part of my thing of that, you know, we're remembering and remembering in that sense of that we're putting ourselves back together again. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. We're remembering. It's not like we don't, we're remembering what we know about who we are. Absolutely. Um, okay, so we're gonna finish because I think we should, but the top three things you would give advice to Sydney are to Zach, if they were choosing the right partner first is, you know, do the work, know yourself, have a sense of what you want. And, you know, I'm gonna say to Sydney's credit, she's certainly not in settling mode, I'll say that. Um, but, open your, open your heart, you know, that's really important. And, um, yeah. What would the third be? Yeah. Really feel into how your values align, because that's important. Yeah. And those values, like they're really, people may have divergent values of sort of what's important, most important to them, but they're also very universal in terms of all of the things that, you know. Are, I think, important in this life. You know, kindness, open-heartedness, you know, caring about the envir, you know, all that. I mean, all that would seem really obvious, but it's not always. So I don't know if that didn't really, that wasn't that coherent, I guess. But, so in response to that, it's a case of you see what people's values are from their actions. Absolutely. And Joan Didion said when she married her husband, that she knew that the big words meant the same thing to them, so that she knew that they would be okay. Mm-hmm. So, so my top three are the three most important words are not I love you. They're, tell me more. Yes. Which speaks to curiosity. Open-heartedness and open mind. So rather than going into, you always do. That's so like, um, And then I think chemistry for me is super important and connection like that. You kind of mental, physical desire, you know, playfulness, you know, that kind of, you know, you look across the room and you kind of go, oh, it's would do. Um, and then compatibility. And compatibility is values, I think values, like everything comes back to values. Mm-hmm. And compatibility and then forgiveness. I think forgiveness is like, so important. And I think it's so important speak about the vision of the life and the kind of your, you know, how you'd like to live your days, as you're building what you're building. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that's as important when you are 20 as when you're 60, because, you know, like I always come back to the little Prince. You are not looking into each other's eyes as you're building your life. You're looking out onto the distance horizon and knowing that, you know, it's like your life's the compound interest on what you do every day, but it's who you're being as you're being every day. Yeah. You know, and marry somebody who's kind, who's generous and who's courageous. I'm journey with you. Like, that's, that's how I really feel like, you know, even so like, all right, we've done all these things together. We've raised these kids. We, you know, dealing with my family primarily cuz you know, both his brothers are around all that. But, you know, but we tr you know, we love to travel, we travel together, you know, whatever. And, and. You know, we've been through the thing of like, all right, the kids are outta the house. It's you and me. You know? So, it's really, you know, the, the companionship and all that, and also, that shared history that we can Oh, I know. It's such a beautiful thing. I mean, I see my parents who have that, mm-hmm. Like, they were married for well over 50 years and all of my siblings are married for a long, long time. So there's a lot of shared memories and I don't have that, yeah. So, I suppose, what's the one thing you would say that helped to repair or get through the shit? Cuz obviously, I can't give advice on that cuz I haven't done it. Yeah, yeah. Willingness. Willingness to listen and willingness to change. You know, not become, not. Become necessarily, oh, I'm gonna be that person. I'm gonna be the person my partner wants me to be, thinks I should be, et cetera. But I wanna open myself to be, to open myself to being the next level and the next level of the person I wanna be and be in this relationship, you know? Beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you. Place to end. That was great. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell all your friends. 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